EliteDubs.Com
May 23, 2012, 10:29:27 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
   Home   Help Search GoogleTagged Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Transmission Tech - How gears work, and what you broke Steve  (Read 6552 times)
enginerd
Suspension & Transmission Masta
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 580



« on: April 30, 2005, 10:41:25 PM »

After several topics on gear grinding, synchro failure, and questions on 02J strength I decided to post a tech topic, how the tranny works. This topic will cover 1st gear assembly onto the output shaft. How it all works, and what gets damaged when you cant get into 1st or second gear. I am not an expert, but i have taken a few of these apart, and I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.


Ok for starters. Here is your output shaft. Notice that there are no gears attached. The gears actually do not attach to the shaft. At the bottom is a bearing flange that holds this to the bell housing side of the tranny. underneath that is a gear that contacts the ring gear on the diff and delivers the maad powa.


Notice the needle bearing installed. Now this next pic shows first gear. First gear has several functions. 1 the inner part is part of the bearing. 2 the lower part is a thrust bearing. The angle on the teeth makes them quiet, however it creates a thrust load pushing the gear down. 3. the teeth, these recieve power from the input shaft gear which is machined in as part of the input shaft. 4, the synchro teeth see the tiny tapered teeth just above big teeth. these teeth connect the gear to the output shaft through the hub (coming soon). 5, the synchro cone. This is the interface between the gear and the synchro. The synchro rubs on this cone slowing the gear down to the same speed as the output shaft so that the hub ring  (coming soon) can match up.



Ok, now whats a synchro you ask?



Brass rings that rub on the gear.

1st and 2nd are actually made of a few pieces. I believe this is for wear purposes.



Ok, sow now you see a brass ring that rubs the gear to slow it down to the right speed, and you see the tiny teeth on the gear and the tiny teeth on the synchro. These match up, so the hub ring can slide down.

First we install the hub


This is splined onto the transmission. Remember the gear is not attached it slides on a needle bearing. So this hub is attached.

Hub assembly consists of the following. Hub, hub ring, spring, and spring clips (im not sure what the full name of these clips are)



Hub is fixed on shaft, while the ring can slide up and down. Note the teeth on the inside of the hub ring. yep those match with the teeth on the synchro and the gear.

Here is a picture of it all installed and with 1st gear engaged.



HOST FOUND  - thanks Chris

Note the ring slides down and first presses the synchro into the gear, then it goes beteen the synchro teeth and matches the gear teeth, and your in.


When you miss a shift you grind the tiny teeth on the gear, and the hub ring. The gear teeth are case hardened, so the ring takes the brunt of the grinding. If these get tweeked a bit, then they are ok, if they get bent over then they might never go in again. or you go somewhere in between. If you grind the isht out of them over and over the suckers get round and then it's like there is no synchro.

Now 2nd gear. Picture the exact same stuff, just upside down and installed on the shaft. The ring moves up and hits 2nd gear synchro and then hits the second gear tiny teeth. If you grind second real bad, then the hub ring teeth can get bent so bad that it can not slide down into first. the bent teeth get stuck on the hub.
Logged

Coil Pack Retaining Brackets: Here
My RIDE

SWIFT MOTORSPORTS CT Forum     
1.8T TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE 
Iceman
Nugget
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 884



« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 10:52:11 PM »

Awesome!  How much grinding can those lil teeth take?  Every now and then I grind them for a quick sec, either from releasing the clutch to quickly, or not fully engaging the gear.
Logged

The whip

Iceman out!!

-Dave-
Matt
n00b and a half
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 37



« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 10:55:03 PM »

its like deja veu Laughing
good post.  :thumbup1:
Logged
enginerd
Suspension & Transmission Masta
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 580



« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2005, 03:39:43 AM »

Im trying to bring the good from the vortex and leaving the shit behind.


the teeth can take quite a beating before it wont shift any more, however the quality gets worse every time you grind. [/quote]
Logged

Coil Pack Retaining Brackets: Here
My RIDE

SWIFT MOTORSPORTS CT Forum     
1.8T TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE 
Iceman
Nugget
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 884



« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2005, 04:24:02 AM »

Quote from: enginerd

the teeth can take quite a beating before it wont shift any more, however the quality gets worse every time you grind.


Great  Sad .
Logged

The whip

Iceman out!!

-Dave-
transient
Rookie
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2005, 07:38:54 AM »

we're gonna end up with 2 pages of stickes before too long.. how bout a BT FAQ sometime soon.. or BT reference.. you know.. something exciting like that so we don't ask the same question all the time..

but this is exciting.. I hate that I always grind my tranny past 7k RPM..

what would fix the grind past 7k?? better synchros?? more alcohol (yes.. it's late on saturday, and wine is good) Razz
Logged
ricerocket
Administrator
Rookie
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 418



« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2005, 07:42:59 AM »

Here's another good tranny breakdown, for those of you who wanna install LSDs. Smile

http://www.funksoulkitty.org/engineandtranny/tranny/02j/assembly/assembly.html
Logged

- Jimmy
puredrive
n00b and a half
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 44



« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2005, 04:56:50 PM »

For those that have broken a stock tranny..how soon after going BT did you break it?

I talked to someone at EIP and the gentleman was telling me that they had never had any issues with any O2J tranny.  that they can handle 400lbs of TQ...

in any case  I just want to learn abit more on this topic.  I guess I better start saving up for a tranny just to be on the safe side
Logged

www.europeanag.com

yeah...its stock!!
Dizzy
1.8t Marshal
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 751



« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2005, 05:05:57 PM »

Quote from: transient


what would fix the grind past 7k?? better synchros?? more alcohol (yes.. it's late on saturday, and wine is good) Razz


Have you tried Pennzoil Syncromesh?  It's supposed to work wonders on 02J's and even 02M's.  Guessing it's the right combination for the material in our synchros.
Logged

funksoulkitty
Virgin
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6



WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2005, 09:26:56 PM »

Nice well-worded and accurate run-down on 1st/2nd gear assemblies and install process Smile  

Quote from: enginerd
Hub assembly consists of the following. Hub, hub ring, spring, and spring clips (im not sure what the full name of these clips are)


Those clips are called "locking pieces" (VW/Bentley manual) or a "catch" (ETKA).

I call them frustrating little pieces of metal that like to wander off at inopportune times   Confused

Quote
If you grind second real bad, then the hub ring teeth can get bent so bad that it can not slide down into first. the bent teeth get stuck on the hub.


I have an on-its-way-to-being-damaged 2nd gear that I replaced when I had my 02J apart to install my Quaife and inspect the internals.  Pics of it as well which I'd be happy to post if you guys were interested.  Not bent teeth but some visible marring.  The previous owner must have really been slamming it into 2nd gear regularly considering the tranny only had 8k on it.

I also just bought a taller 5th to put in....so if anyone wants to see a virgin 5th (new in box!)....when you get to that segment....I'd be happy to share.

Also, if you need some webspace for pics...I may be able to help you out if you are interested...
Logged

Kirsten
'79 20VT Scirocco
http://www.funksoulkitty.org
enginerd
Suspension & Transmission Masta
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 580



« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 12:55:54 PM »

Quote from: ricerocket
Here's another good tranny breakdown, for those of you who wanna install LSDs. Smile

http://www.funksoulkitty.org/engineandtranny/tranny/02j/assembly/assembly.html




yeah that's a great site. need's dissassembly stuff, but the assembly is great. Ill add to my post.
Logged

Coil Pack Retaining Brackets: Here
My RIDE

SWIFT MOTORSPORTS CT Forum     
1.8T TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE 
kilmer420
MAD RUSSIAN
Global Moderator
Rookie
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 445



« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 01:45:57 PM »

this looks like very good information
I will add a guide I came across that might be useful to peeps!


http://volkswagen.msk.ru/transmission/mt_02J_overhaul.pdf
Logged

Resident Software Thief!
funksoulkitty
Virgin
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6



WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 01:50:59 PM »

heh....there are diassembly pics but not as nicely laid out.  I haven't taken the time to really do much with them since the previous month to that I tore down on an 020 and installed a Peloquin and documented all of that....

http://funksoulkitty.org/engineandtranny/tranny/020/trannybuild/trannybuild.html

But here are the Irfranview HTML gallery dissassembly pics (look at how corroded that case is in the second picture and compare that to the assembly pics)

http://funksoulkitty.org/engineandtranny/tranny/02j/disassembly/disassembly.html

Also, the stock differential vs. Quaife:

http://funksoulkitty.org/engineandtranny/tranny/02j/differential/diffs.html

And lots of other pics and pages and more detailed info on things other than trannies on my website as well if anyone is interested...
Logged

Kirsten
'79 20VT Scirocco
http://www.funksoulkitty.org
AllofurVWRbelong2me
n00b and a half
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 48



« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2005, 09:19:18 PM »

Quote from: enginerd
HOST FOUND  - thanks Chris


No problem. beer
Logged

If your going to ask either of the following:
"What: CAI, BoV, BoV, Exhaust, Rims, Dildo, Vibrator, should I get?"
Go to: VWVortex.com they will help you!
forcedinduction
Virgin
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4



« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2006, 05:50:32 PM »

what about 6 speed 02M tranny info.... embarrassed
Logged

TURBO LAG IS JUST A HEAD START
enginerd
Suspension & Transmission Masta
Global Moderator
Padawan
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 580



« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2006, 12:51:52 PM »

funny you should Ask, I just purchased a complete 02M swap and will be doing an LSD install within the next week.  icon_face   Ill take pic's and post everything up on elitedubs.
Logged

Coil Pack Retaining Brackets: Here
My RIDE

SWIFT MOTORSPORTS CT Forum     
1.8T TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE 
elitedübs
MKV stylez yo
Administrator
Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1857



« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2006, 01:08:58 PM »

thanks man
Logged

Anthony
2006 BMP GTi unichipped stg2  icon_smokin
2008 CW Rabbit awaiting unichipping
badger5
Rookie
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2006, 11:09:43 AM »

i dont know where 400lbft is ok came from.. EIP did someone say?

I dont have 400lbft, more like 340lbft when I broke all the teeth of 2nd gear a couple of years ago, and earlier this year 380lbft where 5th shed its teeth too... not on shifting either, was already in 5th and just applying throttle.... bang!!!!

Anyone here tried cryo on their gear set for increased strength?
I've been forced to use a quaife dog box, which I dont personally like, but if I can make my 02J stand the new spec motor's torque I will swap it tomorrow.  (only good thing about quaife gears is they do seem strong, even if they dont like changing so much)
Logged

http://www.badger-5.com
SEAT Ibiza Cupra-83mm JE pistons, Forged rods, largeport head, hybrid turbo, 3" DP & exhaust.  Previously running 390-410bhp. To come a bigger hybrid turbo, catcams, 007 monstor mani, R32 t'body and some more custom code mapping.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  

 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!