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Author Topic: Standalone tips and install / tuning help thread  (Read 12519 times)
fast_a2_20v
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« on: April 29, 2005, 06:04:31 AM »

Standalone Tips & Intall By Fast_a2_20v

**Updated 4/23/05

As per the don's request...

I've done a few standalone installs now and tuned a couple more cars as well, all of my experiance is with haltech brand standalones so take what you will.

So you've got your standalone in a box, and its pretty fugging intimindating... Theres a 15lb coil of wires, a box, a manual, and a cd. (and maybe some sensors and shit)

Don't stress! lol... its not that bad!

So here goes the PRE INSTALL info...

1) dig the manual out, my first suggestion would be to find the list of "kit" contents, and inventory everything. Inspect everything for damage and check it off. The last time you want to notice your missing something important is half way through the install as many of these companies are overseas.

2) take the manual to the couch, with a magic marker, and DEVOUR it, just as you would a college text. This is ABSOLUTELY critical to a smooth install.

3) Pop the CD in your computer and get the software up and running... Go through each and EVERY menu and familiarize yourself. If you see a word that you don't understand, look it up in the manual. This will save COUNTLESS swear words when time comes to get the car running.

Figure out how to do basic things, like modify the fuel maps... big jumps, small jumps, whatever... How do you blend section sof the map, how do you change a percentage, etc...

4) Familiarize yourself with the support... Are there forums? buddies? etc...

5) know your setup. What size injectors? what cams what what what... this will be important if you are asking for help or need basemaps. It seems odvious, but you'd be surprised. [/list]

Starting the install...

1) the biggest mistake is to try to install a standalone on a car which is not mechanically sound. If the car already runs, great! skip this step. If not, take this time to verify the following (i don't care who assembled it, CHECK these things because you'd be surprised what can slip through): Cam timing, leaks, check all bolts are tight... does the fuel pump work (seriously)...

2) collect these tools:

a) GOOD quality heat shrink.
b) good quality automatic strippers, the kind which grab the wire and then split apart
c) bare crimp connectors
d) soldiering iron -- gasp-- i will explain.
e) quality ELECTRONICS soldier, not the plumbing shit. get the good stuff lead based which kills you faster. If it kills you faster, its the right stuff.  :face:
f) teeth  :bowrofl:
g) quality electrical tape - eg 3m... Harbour freight need not apply.
h) some sort of wiring harness protection, either the black plastic loom shit (home depot, a dollar a package).
i) multi meter
j) brain
k) misc pliers needle nose and standard
l) m14x 1.5mm tap and 3/8" NPT tap- available at www.mcmaster.com

for wiring supplies you can try a few sources i've found
www.pegasusautoracing.com carries wirring stuff but MAN they kick ass!
http://www.cableorganizer.com/ they even have the fireproof shit if you want to be big balla tony palo style.

3) Find a spot for the ecu, make sure that the loom can reach all of your fuel injectors, the crank sensor, the cam sensor, and your ignition components, either ignition moduals or an msd box.

4) connecting things, the wiring is dependant on your ECU, so follow thier instructions to the tee. wire up the injectors, IAT and CLT sensors, MAP sensor, and TPS sensor...

the IAT sensor IF it is a gm style one will use an M14x 1.5mm bung, the CLT GM style is 3/8" NPT... You can get taps for these at mcmaster... www.mcmaster.com

CRANK ANGLE SENSOR

this is a 3 wire connector. The middle wire is ALWAYS the ground... the other two, one is shield, and one is the trigger or output... You can tell which is which, just get your multimeter, the one which is a circuit (connected / does not have infinite resistance) with the ground is the trigger, the one which does not appear to be connected to anything is a shield wire, you can leave it disconnected usually.

Trigger angle will be in the ballpark of 78-85 degrees, and if it asks for tooth offset try 12.

I say to soldier on the crank sensor because on one install i did it would not work without the soldier. I'm not going to make thoeries, it just didn't work.

CAM ANGLE SENSOR

Squint REALLY hard... VERY hard, the sensor itself says - O + for negative (ground) output, and postive. Hook up the respective wires...

TPS

This is information cut and pasted from the megasquirt website by bowling and grippo... You can find that website here

"You will need a TPS that is really a potentiometer and not a switch. Many older cars had idle or WOT position switches instead of a real TPS. A real TPS gives a continuously varying signal with changing throttle. There are two wires on the external wiring schematic that go from MegaSquirt into the TPS sensor. These two MegaSquirt wires are +5 Vref signal and a sense line. There is a third wire going to ground. Assuming that you have a proper potentiometer TPS, then +5 Vref goes to one side of the pot, the other side goes to ground and the sensor line is hooked to the wiper.

To hook up your throttle position sensor (TPS), disconnect the TPS, and use a digital multi-meter. Switch it to measure resistance. The resistance between two of the connections will stay the same when the throttle is moved. Find those two - one will be the +5 Vref and the other a ground. The third is the sense wire to MegaSquirt. To figure out which wire is the +5 Vref and which is the ground, connect your meter to one of those two connections and the other to the TPS sense connection.

If you read a high resistance which gets lower as you open the throttle, then disconnected wire is the one which goes to ground, the other one which had the continuous resistance goes to the +5 Vref from the MegaSquirt, and the remaining wire is the TPS sense wire."

OEM Integration info

If you want to keep your oem cluster working, leave the OEM wiring connected to these sensors, and the coolant temp sensor, etc, and strip a small bit of each wire and soldier on the standalone wire... just like a diode mod.



so now you should have MAP, TPS, coolant and intake temp, fuel pump, and crank and cam angles hooked up, minimum.

5) clean up wiring... make it safe, but don't bundle it up so well that if you need to change something its a total joke. Make sure none of the accessory wires for the standalone provide 12v power are going to do anything you wouldn't like Wink

6) power up the standalone, and verify that it communcates with the laptop.
now you need to check a few things
do all the sensors read "normal"? MAP shoul dread about 0 psi, coolant and intake temps roughly room tempurature... etc... calibrate the TPS and make sure it is working correctly.

7) Verify there are fluids in the car. make sure your not going to have any leaks... The first time i cranked my car over i forgot a bolt in the oil filter housing... by the time i knew it was out, there was castrol GTX EVERYWHERE... don't make the same mistake...

Cool Disable your fuel injectors, you do not want to flood the engine.

9) Verify that the fuel pump primes AND runs when your cranking. Commonly it will prime and then not run when the key is on crank. I gave up on figureing out the oem wiring and just run a wire back there now.

9) RPM reading correctly? Make sure it is setup for a "motronic 60-2 wheel" with a magnetic sensor (so it needs a reluctor on most ecu's), its only a 2 wire sensor so diagnosis is relatively simple on that end of things...

10) have a buddy verify that you have spark to all 4 cylinders and it is going to what appears to be the correct firing order depending on if your running waste spark or what.

11) generally observe the car, is it leaking fluids? are there any wires too close to heat sources...

Starting It

1) verify with a timing light that your ignition timing is close. Put the pickup on #1 plug wire or the negative to the coil... Lock the timing @ 0 degrees, and just shine the light on the cam gear, it should be very close to the cam timing mark on the cam gear when your buddy cranks it over (with injectors disabled)

2) check base fuel pressure, given a "normal" sized injector, EG, not 152lb'ers, try something in the ballpark of #40lb base pressure.

3) turn the fuel maps wayyyy down for low rpm... probably just leave the cold start correction and other adjustment maps alone for now.

4) re-enable injectors, crank the engine... You should be starting with VERY low fuel (to avoid using 923589502 spark plugs), so i wouldn't expect to hear much. Crank and add fuel, crank and add, crank and add... you should get some popping... just keep doing this until it fires up. If it almost starts and then dies you can sometimes save it by pumping the gas beacuse the Throttle pump enrichment will provide it some extra fuel to get rolling...

5) once its running however shitty, try to keep it running until its up to tempurature, do whatever it takes more fuel less fuel whatever...

Don't bother trying to accurately tune it, because the ECU is still using the fuel correction maps, which are still untuned, so if you tune the a/f while its cold, it'll just be f'd up when its warm Wink trust me, i've chased my tail around a lot doing that.

tune the vacuum parts of the map according to the wideband for 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, and maybe 3000 rpm, while its 100% up to temp... just do this in neutral.

For timing, I followed billy's lead with a basemap he posted a long time back, and ramp up timing very quickly, this seems to work great on VW. You should probably ramp up to 35 degrees or so of timing by 3000 rpm, under vacuum... Then just straightline it all the way out to redline... Total timing under boost, eh, thats a can of worms and really depends on what turbo and what your setup is. To be honest i really don't want to give a # here because i just KNOW somebody is going to boost 30psi on pump gas and then complain when they pop there motor. 10 degrees total timing under say 20psi of boost would be a SAFE place to start, but keep sharp!

So, anyways that should give you a map which the car runs good with no load and at operating temp. I usually let the car cool, and then re-start it, tuning the fuel correction map as it warms up. Once its warm again, you can start it a few times and mess with the amount of prime MS until it starts really nice... THis should have you starting nice under most conditions. Your coolant correction map if the car only cooled to 70 degrees, just continue the trend into the very cold weather, and taht should get you close.

TPS enrichment, no science here either, once you have the car running crisp, open up this menu... You can blip the throttle and watch what happens to the a/f, or blip it repeately and see if the mixture leans out or gets rich... Play with the values until this seems good, but most importantly play with them until the car responds nicely...

Tuning the car!

First thing to do this is not guts and glory, its tuning as methodically and safely as possible, don't plan on going out and doing some big power burnout pulsl right off the bat...

Next, grab a buddy... Have him put put your car down the road, or if its an automatic, just put it in gear and sit there, make correction sto the map because sometimes they change a bit under load... best thing here is to use an all ranges modifier, or a fuel multiplier value change, to get you close... because often if a car runs a little different under load, it does so in all rpms... anyways... Put down the road at 1000 and get the vacuum happy... then 1500... then 2000... 2500... etc etc... They shouldn't require much of a change at all from what you had in neutral... and like i said you can usually do this all at once and get them all very close in one shibang... Tune for 14.7's under light throttle, i would recommend aiming for 13.5's under heavy throttle and no boost... Anyways, tune all of your vacuums until you have a car which can be granny driven around town and run up into the higher rpms and light throttle...

Tuning boost is something to approach cautiously and methodically... Start at the lowest boost possible... And low rpms... Get on the throttle and allow it to start to build boost and then stop... Was it rich? lean? try to get it to be rich, and then make an educated guess about what it would do in the higher boost area on the same rpm field... Then do low boost in the next rpm, using the previous RPM to guestimate how much fuell... and so on... all the way up...

its slow, and tedious... bt you sort of have to hack it out... once you get a low boost map roughed in you are probably going to make some power...

Then you need to make a decision either datalog on the street or dyno tune... In either case, you need to get a printout of a/f at given rpm's so you can fine tune the maps... at a given MAP..


The #1 thing that people seem to do is IMO to get too caught up in numbers and what works on other peoples setups... LISTEN to your engine... does it sound clean and crisp? or does it sound like a person who smoked 3 packs a day for 30 years? If the engine breaks up AT ALL and the a/f is correct, play with the timing! This is why i was reluctant to give out timing #'s... My buddies 2JZGTE supra motor doesn't like more then about 10 degrees of timing on pump ass, but my other buddies honda likes 18! you can't just stamp a timing # on an engine... Tune the engine to where it is happy! This mostly takes an ear for what a happy engine sounds like, which should be smoooooooooooooth power. "pissed off" sounding usualy means somethign is not right, IMO.

Datalog your road speed... if you have the option, it gives you a virtual dyno because you can monitor your rate of acceleration... Changes in a/f and timing you can see if the car accelerated faster...

Anyways this is in no means meant to be an end all for tuning your car and i'm no pro myself... I want to draw up some drawings for how to do the CRANK angle sensor test... and also find this article on how to wire up a TPS... So stay tuned there is more coming. (no pun intended   Laughing )http://
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Rippinralf
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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2005, 06:39:18 AM »

:bowrofl:

sticky  Cool
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Don®
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2005, 01:00:40 PM »

I appreciate the help Pete  :thumbup:
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TurboGTiandZX12R
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2005, 01:54:16 PM »

AWESOME INFO!!!

Do you have to do a DBC conversion or are the cars runnning on DBW?

Are all the Idiot lights on on the stock cluster?
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2005, 02:00:12 PM »

very informative :coffee:
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kilmer420
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2005, 03:14:14 PM »

a DBC conversion is pretty much a must

you CAN get away with running DBW but why would you @ this point?
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2005, 03:39:46 PM »

DBC conversion is pretty quick and easy now that some people have it figured out. I will talk to them and try to get the part numbers etc etc...

For the time it takes to convert to DBC its not worth letting the ecu play games with you Wink

PS i think the basic principle of keeping DBW is that the ecu will continue to operate the throttle under the condition that it does not know the engine is running. THis would explain why 034efi says they can have either the cluster working with DBC, or DBW working, but not both.
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Issam
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2005, 08:37:22 PM »

:3deek3:
thought I would add some information here...
Some schematics I made up that can be applied to All Standalone's.Just follow the Chart #'s etc


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Issam Abed
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2005, 12:22:16 AM »

Quote from: fast_a2_20v

Trigger angle will be in the ballpark of 78-85 degrees, and if it asks for tooth offset try 12.


Some more info on Tooth offset.

Not sure how this works on other stand alones, but on Haltech, it works like this.  You will need a timing light to do this.  It isn't a hard process, and should be one of the first things you do once the car is up and running.  (i'll try to keep this as generic as possible)  

The haltech ECU really has no way of knowing what the physical ignition timing actually is until you tell it.  There is a way to lock the ECUs ignition timing at 10 degrees. Once you do this, start up the car, with timing light hooked up and check your physical ignition timing.  If you see 8 degrees on the gun, you set yout timing offest to 2.  If you see 2 degrees on the gun, you set your tming offset to 8.  if you see -6 degrees on the gun, you set the timing offset to 16.  The timing offset is just what it says it is, the difference between the number the ECU uses, and the actual timing of the motor.  Not sure if it could be a negative number, but I wouldn't rule it out till I have tried it.  I have a feeling, though, that the haltech software won't even let you enter a negative number, and it has been my exeprince in the past, that the offset is always going to be positive, but who knows.
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BillyT
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2005, 12:26:33 AM »

Not saying this would work with the stock stuff, but setting up a drive by wire system shouldn't be too hard.  If you can send 5 volts form a pot on the pedal to an actuator on the TB, you can have DBW on any car.  

Really wouldn't be that hard to do.

As for making it work and integrate with the OEM cluster and OBD2 stuff, your guess is as good as mine.
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fast_a2_20v
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2005, 12:27:28 AM »

if you put a negative number in, it subtracts around from 360, or something...

i vaguely remember putting -20 in or something and it saying 340 Wink


i'll type some mroe stuff to the above, it was like 1am and i had a test this morning so i ran out of time.  :coffee:
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2005, 03:49:45 AM »

I know Billy knows his stuff when it comes to this.... as he has proven it to us. I havent had the chance to bug him with a million questions since I hate bombarding him with questions, I tend to feel like I'm annoying.

I have on the other hand been through many conversations with Pete over the past couple days and he has been a huge help in troubleshooting my setup. I didnt really think it was going to be as it was, but I ended up having a bunch of lil problems that I probably shouldnt have had. if it wasnt for Pete, I probably would have grenaded my car out of frustration by now

bottom line is, these 2 guys will get you going. positively.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2005, 06:32:20 AM »

its not rocket science, although some of these box's probably could pull that off  :face:


Some usefull junk!

Fuel Injector Sizing calculator
Calculate Trap speed / rpm with a certain size of slick
badass wiring supplies


i'll keep adding crap as i remember where it is Wink
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2005, 05:57:34 PM »

Quote from: fast_a2_20v
its not rocket science, although some of these box's probably could pull that off  :face:i'll keep adding crap as i remember where it is Wink [/url]


My friggin head hurts :coffee:  :notworthy: Great info though!!!
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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2005, 04:45:10 PM »

this is actually a small parts list

1. brake/gas pedal assembly from a 1999 mk4 2litre jetta/golf/beetle with the AEG engine code

2. OBD1 2litre or VR6 throttle body. there are some other brand throttle bodies thaat will work, such as mustang tb or some aftermarket units.
I ran a OBD1 VR6 TB because it was very inexpensive. I had to modify the inlet of the intake manifold to match the inlet size of the new TB.

3. a throttle cable. now I bought the cable that goes along with the 99 2liter gas pedal, but it is a bit too long. it will work fine, but its a lil messy looking in the engine bay. I am on the search for the proper one.

4. a throttle stop to be mounted on the intake manifold. I used one from an mk3 2litre intake manifold. and I just drilled and tapped 2 holes to bolt it to. used a lil bit of JB weld to assure its on there good.

thats it

a lil side note. in the mk4 firewall there is a lil hole behind the gas pedal that pretty much all of us use to run our wideband wires, and boost hoses through... that hole is actually the cable stop for the DBC pedal. so I had to take everything I ran through there back out and drill 2 new 1 inch holes for the boost hoses, and wiring, and the DTA harness through
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2005, 05:03:41 PM »

I'll say one thing.  Along with getting my turbo on this fall I was considering headwork.   This definitely has me thinking about the possibilities though.  lol
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2005, 12:43:37 AM »

To add to the info for wiring in standalone....

I detailed all of the wiring I did for my install, including modifications to the stock AWP wiring harness etc.  I used the DTA P8PRO, however this info can easily be applied to any standalone wiring.

Wiring Details page (boring tables and lots and lots of info):

http://www.funksoulkitty.org/shockypage/wiring/wiringdetails.html

Wiring Details page (lots of pictures version....but not complete....1st out of 4 pages):

http://www.funksoulkitty.org/shockypage/june/wiring/junewiring.html
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2005, 05:35:52 PM »

Petey can you help me install my 8track/sds system  :driving:  Cool
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2005, 11:09:47 PM »

8 track / sds... same thing right?
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2005, 05:43:58 AM »

Quote from: fast_a2_20v
8 track / sds... same thing right?


8 track is slightly more advanced, but very close  :eek3dance:
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GT2871R 1100 & 28RS 1050 shipped
Bosch 440cc & 380cc injectors 175  shipped

|T3/T4E's 595+ shipped|Unitronic|GHL|TiAL 38mm 240 shipped|265LPH Fuel Pumps $135|PTE|ATP|Eurojet|
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2005, 07:15:51 AM »

heres a good source for mil spec tefzel insulated wire and shrinkwrap and stuff

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=WIRE2

wire



electrical shit in general

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=IGNITIONELEC
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2005, 01:17:51 AM »

Wiring 3 wire AEB coils!

each pigtial / connector is labeled pin 1, 4a, and 15...

The oem wires I got... each 15 pin was connected to a black and blue wire for power... 4a's were all connected to the ground wire onto the valvecover, and 1's each had there own, individually colored coil neg...

Wire your four black and blue pin 15's to switched 12v, and use a multimeter to figure out which wires (of the four) go to which coil...
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2005, 10:12:46 PM »

Quote from: fast_a2_20v
Wiring 3 wire AEB coils!

each pigtial / connector is labeled pin 1, 4a, and 15...

The oem wires I got... each 15 pin was connected to a black and blue wire for power... 4a's were all connected to the ground wire onto the valvecover, and 1's each had there own, individually colored coil neg...

Wire your four black and blue pin 15's to switched 12v, and use a multimeter to figure out which wires (of the four) go to which coil...


Dont forget you can wire them up in Wasted Spark Format where "Pin 1" on Coil #1 & 4 are wired in parallel and Pin 1 on Coil #2 & 3 are wired in Parallel.
Will host some pictures later of a recent install.
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2007, 10:35:43 PM »

I want to install a standalone on my car but it uses Quattro (Audi S3 225 ),,so I guess I will have to keep the stock ecu  ,and the stand alone ,,,,can you help what must I cut and what must stay in for all the stuff(ESP ,QUATTRO, dash info)   to work ,,,can you please help
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 03:40:08 PM »

60-2 trigger wheel in motronic 1.8t...
am i right in saying the trailing edge of the 1st tooth after the 2 missing teeth is 90 degrees BTDC?

timing of the cam sensor also, is a weird arrangement, assymetrical trigger wheel.?

DTA S60 is my new standalone
you guys got the wiring colours for the OE 2 in 1 water temperature sensor?

thanks
bill
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 10:23:10 PM »

Hi i'm daniel and quite new on the subject. i'm making a swap on my golf mk3 gti with an audi agu 1.8t engine. got stuck in the wiring. by any chance can you provide me with the engine's wiring diagram? thanks
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2008, 06:52:21 PM »

knock knock..
anyone in here?

Quote
this is a 3 wire connector. The middle wire is ALWAYS the ground... the other two, one is shield, and one is the trigger or output... You can tell which is which, just get your multimeter, the one which is a circuit (connected / does not have infinite resistance) with the ground is the trigger, the one which does not appear to be connected to anything is a shield wire, you can leave it disconnected usually.

I have wiring detail which says middle pin2 is signal wire. pin1 is sensor ground, and pin3 is shield.

Are all 1.8t crank sensors reluctor ones?

mines giving me a hard time reliably synching to the ~S60 DTA ecu.

any ideas?
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SEAT Ibiza Cupra-83mm JE pistons, Forged rods, largeport head, hybrid turbo, 3" DP & exhaust.  Previously running 390-410bhp. To come a bigger hybrid turbo, catcams, 007 monstor mani, R32 t'body and some more custom code mapping.
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