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Author Topic: How about that VVT  (Read 8930 times)
bobqzzi
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« on: July 27, 2006, 03:57:36 AM »

As I'm sure most of you know, some models of the 1.8T come with Variable Valve Timing (VVT).  I thought I'd start by posting my understanding of how it works, and some interesting findings.  PLEASE- if I have made a mistake, let me know!

Which cars have VVT?  I don't know all the engine codes that have VVT, but in general 2001 up Audi/VWs have VVT (North America only, I'm sadly ignorant about the rest of the world).  It is quite easy to tell if a car is so equipped; it will have an electric solenoid protruding from the back of the head.

What does it do?  The VAG VVT system is designed to improve cold start emmisions by advancing the intake camshaft during coldstarts.  It is only operative for a few moments and has no performance purpose.

How does it work? The VVT mechanism is contained completely in the cam chain tensioning mechanism.  (This is significant because it means that all heads can be configured with or without VVT depending on which tensioner is used.)   The Non-VVT tensioner has spring pressure on the upper (slack side) surface and uses oil pressure to apply downward pressure on the tension side- this force in minimal.

The VVT tensioner has springs on both sides that apply tension to the chain.  It also has a larger piston thats direction of thrust is controlled by oil pressure.  Default is an upward thrust that places the tensioner in the same basic position as the Non-vvt tensioner.  When the electric solenoid is activated, the pressure switches sides, effectively shortening the bottom run of chain and advancing the intake camshaft. 

Why do we care?
Sorry for the delay.  In any case there are two reasons we care.

1. The possible performance advantage- advancing the intake cam to create some overlap(stock cams have 0 overlap). Under some running circumstances this could be of benefit- some expermentation would show waht works.  HOWEVER, I think this is a bad idea.  The VVT shifts oil pressure tot he drive side of the chain, and greatly increases the load on the phenolic tensioner.  I suspect that if it were to run in that position very much, the phenolic would wear away quickly.  There is alos the matter of the solenoid itself.  It is doubtful in is rated for continuous duty, and if programming required it to be activated often, it might fail.  If someone has a bad VVT tensioner, I can construct some sort of duty cycle test.  I would be much more interested in a tuner turningt he VVT off altogether.

2.  Since the intake changes phase, if one were to put in aftermarket camshafts, piston to valve clearance could be an issue.  I am convinced that larger cams allow the 1.8T to make much more power, but certainly wouldn;t want anybody to bend valves trying a set out.  With smaller grinds like the CAT 3651, it isn't a problem- but it may be with larger ones. (I'll be checking this out in the future)

Are the VVT and Non-VVT cams different?

Good question!!!  The answer is maybe, but I dont think so.  Here is what I do know:

1. The lobes on VVT and non-VVT cams are identical.  I had them checked on a cam doctor and the results are below (top lobe is stock intake)



2. The part numbers for the VVT and Non-VVT cams are different.

Non-VVT 058 109 021B
VVT 058 109 021M

3.  The part numbers for the cam gears are different, but one supercedes to the other (sorry, will post numbers later)

4.  The cam timing events for listed in the Bentley manual are the same for VVT and non-VVT engines (AEB, AWP) as follows

Timing events at 0 lash and 1mm lift

Inlet opens after TDC  18 degrees
Inlet closes after BDC  28 degrees

Okay, that must mean that the cam gears are pressed onto cams in a different position, so I bolted a head to a shortblock and installed a set of stock cams. My thought was that if I used a Non-VVT tensioner and measured a matching non-VVT intake cam's events, I could then install a VVT intake cam while still using the non-VVT tensioner and see the difference in timing.

Things turned out differently than I had planned.  I always do the exhaust cam first since it establishes the relationship between the cams and crankshaft. I had never degeed in a set of stock cams before (just line up the dots, there is no adjustment) and was surprised to find the timing numbers off @7 degrees.
Okay, I must be off a tooth, so I retarded it one tooth.  now I was off @7 degrees the other way.  After checking my set-up several times, reestablishing TDC twice and even changing the head to one I absolutely, positively knew wasn't cut, I came to the conclusion that : A. Bentley is wrong  B. My set-up is incorrect  C. the factories method and mine for checking valve events different.
With the exhaust cam lined up with the rear cam cap the exhaust cam timing is advanced @ 7 degrees

                                                             Bentley                   Actual
Exhaust cam opens before BDC             28                          35
Exhaust cam closes before TDC              8                           15


I don't know how to account for the discrepancy, but figured I'd check out the intake too.

I found it was off by the same 7 degrees advanced, so at least I'd be able to install the VVT cam and see the difference.

To my surprise, the timing specs came out exactly the same!!


My conclusion is the cams are exactly the same, but I'm a bit uneasy with it. I'm also perplexed about the stock timing specs being off by 7 degrees.  Your thoughts, comments and criticism is appreciated.







« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 03:24:16 AM by bobqzzi » Logged
Dizzy
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2006, 05:08:45 AM »

Controllable advance and retard by the OEM ECU?   icon_face
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DonŽ
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 01:59:33 PM »

What about the performance aspect of this variability? I have witnessed 30whp gain tuning the VVT on a 24V VRT using the GPO on a Tec3r Electormotive. Not sure if the 24V head uses the same tensioner configuration as the 1.8T.

I'm aware that there are couple of tuners that have experimented with this seeing moderate to great results.
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v84lnch
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 06:36:52 PM »

don, you talking about advanceing the cam to overlap the exhaust side? i woudl love to see some results of this if it can be done with the ecu. i don't see why i couldnt, but to much lap will hurt the effeciency of a turbo charged engine.
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 06:44:35 PM »

The cam overlap would have variably be tuned to the effeciency of the turbo based on load/boost.
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enginerd
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 07:04:18 PM »

VVT engines are reported by APR to make more power than the non VVT engines.

My theory is that the VVT engines can have a more agressive camshaft, or at least phase the camshaft more agressively if vvt is used to improve cold start emissions. Bob have you taken any measurements to check this? Are the cams the same?


In regards to the 24V VR6T, Don are you sure it wasn't an intake manifold runner changover that you were looking at? In theory you want to dyno in both positions, see where they cross and then make that the changeover point. I have done this on MR2's and even Vtaaakk hondas. Helps smooth out the kick in the pants you get from the transition.

If the VVT on the 1.8T was used as a performance feature would it be able to swith over at high RPM reliably over and over again? Ususally components designed for use 1 time at startup do not have the reliability needed to change over 100 times a day.

My co-worker has his turbo nissan sentra VVT set to a pressure switch to help with spool up. Seems to work well for him.





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enginerd
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 07:12:53 PM »

The cam overlap would have variably be tuned to the effeciency of the turbo based on load/boost.

In theory you could run a dyno pull with it in one position and then again in the other position. I doubt there are many cases where an over advanced intake cam woudl help us. i dont think we really have any overlap anyways.

I also question if the ECU would respond to tampering by some kind of massive timing pull.

For those interested, take a look at the hondata web site for the k-series engine.

I had to tune one of these cars. It has the normal vtec but it also has a real vvt.

0 - 50 degrees of adjustment, there is a seperate fuel map and timing map for 0-10-20-30-40-50 degrees of position, and a control map that tells the ECU where to position the cam based on RPM, TPS and VAC. Lets jsut say it was not fun to tune. 13 maps this was me =  hyper hyper


 
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DonŽ
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 07:21:24 PM »

Nothing was changed on the car. The GPO has an output of 0-5v and it was hooked up and controlled via the tec3 @ 5500 rpm is where it peaked and I'm guessing fully retarded where downlow was advanced for spool-up. The car is using an HPA modified Intake mani so the changeover valve is not used.

I'll try to get the dynos from Marco @ SEM.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 09:24:31 PM by DonR » Logged

bobqzzi
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2006, 03:24:51 AM »

Edited, please discuss!
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bobqzzi
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2006, 03:25:55 AM »


If the VVT on the 1.8T was used as a performance feature would it be able to swith over at high RPM reliably over and over again? Ususally components designed for use 1 time at startup do not have the reliability needed to change over 100 times a day. 




My thoughts exactly






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badger5
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006, 09:14:07 PM »

Does APR's more power from VVT have anything to do with the ecu's on those model cars?
wideband lambda, EGT strategy etc.

just a thought.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2006, 09:14:36 PM »

Great info here. 
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2006, 09:20:26 PM »

I guess the question in endurance and reliability of the tensioners duty requires re-consideration. I soon realized this after a brief chat with Bob about it...and Justin reconfirmed it.
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2006, 03:03:30 PM »

With regards to the tenstioner/selenoid reliability, isn't it possible to just set a switch so you can use the VVT when you want to? For driving around on the street you wouldn't need it. But going to the track, or dynoing, you would... Just throw a switch inline and turn it on when you need it?
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2006, 03:25:42 PM »

It may conflict with what's tuned on the ECU throwing a code...I can look into this.
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2006, 09:09:52 PM »

so the solonoid engages and presses out the chain during cold start then retracts during normal driving?

that doesnt sound right.
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bobqzzi
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2006, 12:28:11 AM »

so the solonoid engages and presses out the chain during cold start then retracts during normal driving?

that doesnt sound right.

It switches the tensioner to the bottom.  Normally, the run of chain on the bottom is nearly straight since this is the side under tension from the clockwise rotating cams. The top run of chain has a "bow" in it. When activated oil pressure switchs side transfers the bow to the bottom.

I'm quite sure this is how it works- I spent most of  a day taking them apart, applying air pressure, mocking them up in a head and checking it out.

As for performance uses- I'm thinking this is really a dead end. other than having the chip tuners shut it off so you needn;t worry when installing cams.
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2006, 05:30:13 AM »

Maybe I missed it, but is it possible to take the guts out of a VVT motor and transplant it into a non-VVT head?  I have been lookin' at a couple heads that don't have VVT but are really cheap because the mileage is high and the valves are bent.
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2006, 01:30:35 PM »

Yes, you just reuse your VCT tensioner.   
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2006, 07:01:53 PM »

Who's up for some testing?   Block 090 and 091 shows rpm/duty cycle %/adjustment specified/adjustment actual, for "continuous camshaft adjustment" for exhaust bank 1 and intake bank 1 respectively.   ahhh
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2006, 05:17:32 PM »

I guess no one then.  lol  I'll try to do my own logs tonight, would like someone else's to compare against.   
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v84lnch
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2006, 05:38:15 PM »

I can run some logs of 090/091.

If you want a comparison log, let me know. No point in going out an beating on my car for an unappreciated data log....
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2006, 10:09:15 PM »

Who's up for some testing?   

I don't care where the data comes from, so whenever you're ready. 
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v84lnch
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2006, 10:14:52 PM »

i just took a look at those measuring blocks...
090 is idle stabilization and rpms.
091 is rpms and load. not sure what you can accomplish with that data... huh

load was typical...
idle stabilization was at -1% at idle, and -0-% under wot...
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2006, 10:31:34 PM »

Go log 091 or 093.  I don't need you to read off the values at idle for me. 
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v84lnch
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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 12:47:41 AM »

what is it that you're trying to obtain, data wise? to see how/if the vvt controls the same position?
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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 01:30:59 AM »

Yup.  Obviously we don't have continuous camshaft adjustment based on which version of the channel comes up on VAG.   I'm trying to see when and if the VCT is doing it's thing. 
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bobqzzi
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 01:43:50 AM »

Yup.  Obviously we don't have continuous camshaft adjustment based on which version of the channel comes up on VAG.   I'm trying to see when and if the VCT is doing it's thing. 

I'm thinking an led tapped into the solenoid would be the hot set-up
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v84lnch
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 02:15:15 AM »

ok. i'll look at blocks 092/093 in the morning. see where they land...
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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 05:52:56 PM »

looked at block 093. it is the same as 090/091 combined. no go on that either. i will play around with the blocks, and see what block it is i can view the cam angle.
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